[WoW classic] Get your socks ready. Release date set.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Red, May 14, 2019.

?

What will you pals be playing?

  1. Glorious Chad Alliance

  2. Virgin Dry Dicked Horde

Results are only viewable after voting.
  1. Kanmuk_Sealclubber

    Kanmuk_Sealclubber Yes

    Post Count:
    9,484
    "Fighting over spawns" can be great, but it can also be trash. It has to be done from a place of relative balance, otherwise it becomes 14 hour-a-day PvE meganerds snowballing their PvE advantage to lock people out of content. Like Pandemonium. That's not hardcore PvP. That's hardcore PvE.

    It's also not exactly "meaningful" to PvP'ers with my mindset to earn the right to get to spend 4 hours raiding something or doing some shitty dungeon. I'd rather just pvp travellers or people outside cities.

    The same can be said of item loot, coin loot, etc. I would love a way to make money from PvPing in WoW, rather than being actively punished for it (I've drained hundreds of gold at this point with no return income). A coin loot of like 0.05% or 0.025% per kill would be cool. But being able to take huge amounts of gold or take people's MC gear from one kill would be dumb. Nobody would play that game.

    Those are all issues that could be solved. But it would be a massive undertaking for a game like WoW. The mechanics are just not set up well for World PvP and heavy death penalties. Stealth exists, you die too fast, and PvE gear is way too powerful. Heavy death penalties were more realistic in EQ because survivability was extremely high and gear didn't mean that much until Velious if you were a caster.
     
  2. Kanmuk_Sealclubber

    Kanmuk_Sealclubber Yes

    Post Count:
    9,484
    Also, the best World PvP game I played was DaoC Mordred. But it died off shortly after I started playing.
     
  3. Utumno

    Utumno Administrator Staff Member

    Post Count:
    41,528
    I still think even all these PvP ideas (while a lot of them would be nice, good improvements over the usual, etc.) would still fall short of the potential of online gaming. If you keep optimizing for PvP (and removing PvE) you're basically going to end up w/a shooter or equivalent like Chivalry, just w/more classes and abilities.

    To me the clear direction mmorpg's need to take in terms of evolution is far more world persistence, with foundational support for military/economic/political warfare, and the whole espionage system that will naturally come from that. It bums me out that nobody really seems to be pushing in this direction, and to date only some text MUDs and Eve have really pulled this off... with Eve being hampered by old tech, ridiculous learning curve, and warfare-via-spreadsheet mechanics.
     
  4. Velox

    Velox TZT Abuser

    Post Count:
    6,012
    That's more of a classical persistent/virtual world take on it than the current crop of MMORPGs, which are just massively multiplayer-games. I also like the former, but they just require too much time investment for most people, me included.
     
  5. Red

    Red TZT Neckbeard

    Post Count:
    16,689
    It's always funny when people cry that they want item loot in pvp but also cry about no life neckbeards with the best gear stomping in everyone. Who do you think you are gonna be pvping?
     
  6. Harper

    Harper encrypted account, pls don't sniff my packet

    Post Count:
    5,327
  7. globally banned

    globally banned TZT Abuser

    Post Count:
    6,623
    I switched to daggers and crit a lock for 1k today, wow is great
     
    Utumno likes this.
  8. Sear

    Sear TZT Neckbeard Lord

    Post Count:
    32,654
    I don't cry about fighting these players - I love fighting uphill. Our 3-man (war/mage/priest) has rolled over everyone indiscriminately.

    My problem is with the vanilla honor system being a PvE grind. You'd expect a pvp ranking system to rank players based on how they perform in pvp. They didn't do that until arenas.

    I prefer PvP being meshed with PvE in a meaningful way over the safe approach Blizzard took. It made both aspects of the game more engaging for me. I think Blizzard's take was a big step backwards.

    It's true that "fighting over spawns" will eventually reward the players who play the game the most, but at least you have the opportunity to contest them. In WoW, you have a 0% chance of stopping anyone from farming MC for 200 hours or running BRD fifty times to get Hand of Justice. You aren't allowed to do that, because God forbid some casual player on a PvP server have to actually fight players to access an important area of the game world.

    Some of the most fun I've had PvPing in a MMO was running guerrilla warfare on a dragon raid or dungeon group. I can't even compare that to fighting randoms at a flight path in WoW. Half of the players don't even fight back and /sigh at you instead, because there are no stakes to it. It's designed only to protect their investment in casual players.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  9. Utumno

    Utumno Administrator Staff Member

    Post Count:
    41,528
    fuckin sploiter
     
  10. Sear

    Sear TZT Neckbeard Lord

    Post Count:
    32,654
    my pre-release take still applies: WoW is a great PvE game. TZT'ers have already spent hundreds of hours on the PvE. That's the game.

    I think it is a Fisher Price world PvP game. I didn't expect that to be any different for me this time around, and it's not. I knew I'd reach the point where I was dueling people outside of Ironforge out of boredom with the world pvp.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
  11. Sear

    Sear TZT Neckbeard Lord

    Post Count:
    32,654
    Optimizing PvP isn't mutually exclusive with PvE existing. Who said anything about removing it?

    I agree with you on that second bit. I think if you design for an immersive experience, then those dynamic elements should come with the territory. Before the MMO genre staled into formulaic WoW clones and Korean exp grinds, I think that was the approach.

    I don't want to come across like I'm hating on Blizzard/WoW too much here. I appreciate their games for what they are. I just think players will have to look elsewhere for a game that steps outside of genre conventions or risks their golden goose of soccer mom casual accessibility. They'd never make a game like EVE.
     
  12. Harper

    Harper encrypted account, pls don't sniff my packet

    Post Count:
    5,327
    if the pvp is driven by pve (I.e. dungeons) the world and characters should be relatively short lived. I'm thinking hours or days
     
  13. Ssalam

    Ssalam TZT Abuser

    Post Count:
    6,264
    What's up with this queue? Did a guild or two migrate here or something? This is my first time having to wait.
     
  14. Mern is Best

    Mern is Best TZT Addict

    Post Count:
    3,772
    You will never please everyone.

    Everquest pvp was garbage but most people here seem to put it on a pedestal as the epitome of pvp, which is funny to me because most people just ran to the nearest zone line as soon as pvp happened. Its was zone line camping and zone plugging because you didnt want an SS of your corpse put up on TZT. Everquest was 99% pve, and the only reason most people did pvp was because of pve. The real pvp guilds (MM, LotU, HR, ect.) that did exists never got to end game pvp and never did anything significant, but they had fun. Rallos Zek was a joke, everyone just ran around bagging their gear before they died.

    The only thing that made everquest good was the ability to talk trash to opponents and the amount of drama it produced. This was all player created content. On TZ there was no incentive to pvp other then bragging rights or to shit on someone's blueberry pve adventure to try to get some hate tells to screen cap and upload.
     
    Red likes this.
  15. Agrul

    Agrul TZT Neckbeard Lord

    Post Count:
    46,021
    my favorite EQ pvp was on sullon zek

    no rules prison island trains & exploits is fair game made it really entertaining
     
  16. Mern is Best

    Mern is Best TZT Addict

    Post Count:
    3,772
    Layering is gone. Get ready for the fun
     
  17. Octavionn

    Octavionn Mind Blowing!

    Post Count:
    2,442
    Server is full? WTF?
     
  18. Octavionn

    Octavionn Mind Blowing!

    Post Count:
    2,442

    What is layering?
     
  19. Kors

    Kors TZT Addict

    Post Count:
    2,912
    17 min queue is cool, very classic
     
  20. Sear

    Sear TZT Neckbeard Lord

    Post Count:
    32,654
    Zone plugging > players zoning into safe instances where you can't follow them.

    EQ and WoW are both PvE games. The difference is that EQ doesn't really restrict how you play (+ Verant was swell enough to throw out a few alternate ruleset PvP server types). It's far from the epitome of a good PvP game, but I appreciated the high stakes to it. Something like EVE would probably appeal to me for the same reason.

    Just my opinion pals. I spent hundreds of hours on PvP in EQ and would log it just to do it. I can't do that with WoW, but I'll keep my sub active just to pop on and play with you nerds.