Police Brutality, White Supremacy MEGATHREAD

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Vlaara, Jun 18, 2020.

  1. Velox

    Velox TZT Abuser

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    I'm so tired of the American culture war. You have to sift through buckets of virtue signaling to even attempt to piece together the purported factual basis of an argument. It poisons everything it touches. Even when I was looking through reviews of Netflix shows earlier today, like every other review was a 1 or a 10 depending on culture war affiliation. It's ridiculous.
     
  2. BanedenHR

    BanedenHR TZT Neckbeard Lord

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    CULTURE WAR
     
  3. Grandasaur Egg

    Grandasaur Egg Groor.

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    The usa would resemble Europe in terms of social programs if there were no black people.
     
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  4. Velox

    Velox TZT Abuser

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    What is true is that US political leadership has not accomplished much over the last decades due to political roadblocks. You still have shitty social programs, but at least you are united in your effort to stay divided and oppose each other.
     
  5. Grandasaur Egg

    Grandasaur Egg Groor.

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    Both sides am i rite folks?
     
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  6. Agrul

    Agrul TZT Legend (seek help)

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    does montana have strong social programs? it seems to be only 0.6% black, 89% white (85.9% non-hispanic white). i.e., if the claim is that US opposition to social programs is primarily an effort to hurt african americans, then states w/ fewer african americans should have stronger social programs/less resistance to them, right?
     
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  7. Velox

    Velox TZT Abuser

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    Get out of here with your facts and numbers, the culture war only cares about 140 character virtue signals.
     
  8. Grandasaur Egg

    Grandasaur Egg Groor.

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    The nature of that debate is nationalized, and the core of it is based on the southern strategy.
     
  9. Agrul

    Agrul TZT Legend (seek help)

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    i mean -- i certainly buy that racism pushed by some politicians has played a role in advocacy against social programs, and dont want to pretend its role was negligible; obviously some prominent GOP political strategists are even on record saying as much. i just think (A) it's hard to, quantitatively, tell how much of widespread opposition to "government" is due to that alone, and specifically that (B) capture of politicians (especially in the GOP) by the wealthy is independently very important, as is widespread misunderstanding of macroeconomics, and that the US has a much larger urban v rural divide than europe
     
  10. Agrul

    Agrul TZT Legend (seek help)

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    why is it uniquely national? surely if this is the uniquely important explanation for opposition to social programming, it should apply on a state-by-state level as well
     
  11. Grandasaur Egg

    Grandasaur Egg Groor.

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    Ask any conservative montanan what a welfare queen is, and how they feel about it. It’s that simple.

    A strategy designed to fuck over blacks in the south metastasized into a national rhetoric via broadcast news and especially radio.

    why should lily white montana care about welfare queens?

    hate radio is exciting and fun.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021
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  12. Agrul

    Agrul TZT Legend (seek help)

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    but .. why would people in montana oppose social programs in montana to punish black people who they think are abusing welfare if there are almost no black ppl in montana?

    EDIT: to be clear, im asking why you think they would oppose social programs in their own state. not about why you think they would oppose social programs/welfare federally. without explaining variation in social programming from state to state (states being the principal organs responsible for eg unemployment insurance, iirc), i dont think you can support a claim like 'the US would have european levels of social programming if not for racism'
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021
  13. Grandasaur Egg

    Grandasaur Egg Groor.

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    Many people here and elsewhere in the Southeast are turning down Covid-19 vaccines because they are angry that President Donald Trump lost the election and sick of Democrats in Washington thinking they know what’s best. State and local public health officials have struggled to combat that deep-rooted obstinance.

    https://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/24/covid-vaccine-push-rural-500717



    because of hate radio and brainwashing, and also because it’s viewed as a national problem? Yes it’s irrational. But this is what republican messaging based on racial hate has done for decades.
     
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  14. Agrul

    Agrul TZT Legend (seek help)

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    it isnt really just about it being irrational; it's more that it's not clear to me what you would even consider to be evidence inconsistent w/ your explanation
     
  15. Fais

    Fais TZT Abuser

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    We are really making headway now. Man we really need to help poor, sick, homeless, and anyone that has a problem. I am a firm believer in giving to whatever @Kanmuk_Sealclubber charity is. Lets all work together! I would love to compare our lifetime personal donations to charities that help feed, cloth, house, and provide healthcare for those in need. As a % of income adjusted for by cost of living. I suspect even total dollars might be stunning. Volunteer time to the local community measured at the real value of the skilled labor. Fix someone’s computer for free $60/hr. Fix their plumbing issue 120$/hr. Maybe I should get paid for my 5 adopted siblings and the ~80 foster kids I shared my home and parents with over 20 years. I guess I might have to subtract all our free dental care since our friend the dentist did our whole family for free.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021
  16. Grandasaur Egg

    Grandasaur Egg Groor.

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    Evidence that:

    - A Montanan's conservatism is different from a South Carolinian's in terms of beliefs about social welfare
    - Evidence that conservative beliefs about social welfare aren't racially motivated
    - The history of choices regarding healthcare in the US weren't racially motivated
     
  17. Velox

    Velox TZT Abuser

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    It's funny that this discussion of culture and social programs immediately turned into a debate about racism. Again. From an outside perspective, racism seems very much overused as an explanatory model in current US politics. As has been discussed multiple times in the past, the empirical evidence on to what extent institutional racism in America affects life outcomes seems unclear and difficult to disentangle from economic injustices that we do know affect life outcomes globally.

    I also suspect most white Americans actually aren't at least intentionally racist. If you polled people on if you support racism, the vast majority would not. Being against racism does not seem the controversial issue people make it out to be. It's difficult to find good polls on this, but see e.g. this poll on use of the N-word, where distributions for whites and blacks are very similar:

    [​IMG]

    Surely actual white supremacists wouldn't have any problem using the N-word. Racism only becomes controversial when you start from the POV that racists are the cause of the every problem and only way to fix America is to hunt them down. That racism angle seems like a forever war against an invisible enemy (because obvious racists seem very rare), with unclear potential for measurable improvements in quality of life even if you were to succeed (because a large fraction is just economic injustice). When this gets out of hand it can be seriously distracting from the economic causes of social injustice, that we know could be fixed and that should be less controversial to the ~75% of the US population that actually make less than $50k. Somehow the Democrats are still struggling to pull together even 50% support for their platform. They can't blame it all on racism and media brainwashing.

    I know some like Kanmuk argue that it's little problem to do both without prioritizing, but political messaging is important precisely because the public has a very limited attention span. The "defund the police" movement is a good example how distracting poor political messaging can be, where Dem leadership has lately been working hard to try to distance themselves from it. After all that BLM rage and energy spent, I wonder if it will amount to anything in the end except more people being angry? Yes, it generated attention, but when you have a public discourse whose single explanatory model is "racism" and single solution is "hunt down the hidden racists" (here police), it's very difficult to actually change much for the better. The left could do a much better job of channeling all the discontent in America into something constructive.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2021
  18. Grandasaur Egg

    Grandasaur Egg Groor.

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    The issue with vaccines and the issue with racism, or supporting historically racist policies, share the same root, so I agree "hunting down racists" makes no sense. That doesn't mean we shouldn't diagnose the country's problems accurately: our healthcare system is racist, was negotiated by racists, and its current supporters, whether or not they personally feel racist, are supporting racist policy.

    I think it's better to name things as they are, and not shy away from labels because they make some white people boo hoo sometimes that they're total marks for an ugly system.
     
  19. Agrul

    Agrul TZT Legend (seek help)

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    i dont mind calling things racist if they demonstrably are. i just think the evidence presented is tepid at best

    that's pretty normal here, though
     
  20. AgelessDrifter

    AgelessDrifter TZT Neckbeard Lord

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    Doesn’t Montana have, like, one representative in the House?

    Racism and shitty inequitable economic policy feed on one another in the US. I don’t think that’s unimportant if the causality isn’t unidirectional or if one isn’t “the uniquely important” factor determining the other. I think this:

    is sufficient to make the topic worthy of attention