A work question I figured I could ask for advice here...

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Octavionn, May 21, 2020.

  1. Octavionn

    Octavionn Mind Blowing!

    Post Count:
    2,648
    Since last week I’ve been battling it out with HR because my boss kept forwarding my emails to HR with what should have been just discussions between a boss and her employee. Basically issues of feeling overworked, strained, etc etc. She knows I've been trying to get her to get more help for the department for months. Then out of no where she schedules a 3-way meeting between myself, her, and this new lady only 2 months new to the company who’s basically head of HR. My boss and this new lady all worked together from a previous company. My current boss was just hired back in October.

    The first meeting I had with her, immediately from the start was negative. Her tone of voice over the phone, rapid speech, the constant "tsk" she'd make like an agitated black woman arguing with her boyfriend. She basically kept telling me how I felt and how I feel now does not matter anymore since the department had hired 2 new people 7 months ago. 1 to replace someone we let go and an additional add, which my entire department had been trying to get for over 1.5 years before they finally let us do it.

    2nd meeting with her was with my entire department. She was supposed to help us come up with viable ideas to help alleviate the workload and stress everyone was feeling. She's never spoken to anyone else in my department except my boss and myself from the day before. That meeting went negative also. When my coworker began to talk to explain to her how he felt, where he was coming from, what he thought we needed, etc... she immediately cut him off with.. "This isn't about how you feel. We're here to talk about solutions." It was very cold, she sounded clearly annoyed. And it was a complete disregard for how he or anyone felt. That shocked my entire department.

    3rd meeting with her was 2 days later between myself, her, and my boss. Again same thing. Her "tsk" sounds, rapid speaking, etc. This time around she repeatedly kept telling me if I didn't like it here, I should re-think if the company was right for me. Basically telling me I should just quit. Like the entire hour long meeting that was her underlining message over and over. That I should think about if working there was right for me. That meeting I also called her out on her complete lack of caring or concern for how I felt or how anyone felt. I summarized everything she was saying to me and said.. "So you're basically telling me this this this..." She immediately gets offended with "I did NOT say that." To which I realize she's clearly not listening to me. So I restructure my sentence to say.. "You obviously didn't use those exact words, I'm summarizing." Which she immediately continued with her argumentative defense with "I DID NOT SAY THAT." So I restructured how I said it again and said "The message that I was hearing that was coming across with everything you were saying was this this and this." To which she finally changed her tone and was a bit more calmer etc.

    4th meeting I had with her was last Tuesday. I scheduled a meeting with her to try to fix whatever this negative hostility she has towards me and to try to brush it under the rug as just a miss-understanding. That we got off on the wrong foot, etc. That meeting I scheduled through zoom... and zoom puts up a red dot when someone's recording it. So she was recording the entire meeting without disclosing it to me but I don't know if she realized I could tell she was. That meeting was pretty ugly. I opened up with telling her I wanted this meeting to clear things up so we can have a positive working relationship, that I feel we got off on the wrong start. etc. Gave background about myself, who I am in the company, etc. I was the 2nd most recognized employee by other employees as having gone above and beyond, etc. Everyone in the bank knows who I am... except the people in loans. My interactions with them is bare minimal. I have racked up praises from clients left and right. etc. After that She we go into what went on with the meetings the week before. Why I felt they were negative. To give her specific examples. So i do. VERY specific. Tone of voice, her "tsk" sounds, agitation, cutting people off when they're trying to talk about how they feel, etc. She starts lieing by saying she doesn't remember cutting anyone off. That she has notes written down. And she proceeds to tell me her recollection of events during my department wide meeting. I immediately correct her because it was clear to me she was obviously lieing and trying to rewrite history so it didn't look bad on her. I told her exactly how the meeting went up until the point where she cut off my coworker, who's also the guy who's been in the department the longest and the most important guy there, and in my opinion is far more important than most people in the entire company. She finally settles with "She doesn't remember, but if it did happen that way, she didn't mean to come off as seeming to not care." blah blah... whatever I was thinking to myself. I just kept being professional and continued. Then when we talked about her constant rapid speaking and "tsk" sounds, she started talking about having cotton mouth as the reason why she was making them. That her mouth gets dry. Again, it was obvious to me she was completely making that up because at no point in that recorded call did she make those sounds. Also, she kept muting her mic and I could faintly hear voices in the background that I don't think she knew I could hear. She clearly had other people listening in. One voice sounded like it could have been the CEO... he has a very distinct voice. I couldn't make out anyone else, but throughout the call i could here there was a full on discussion happening in the background. She probably had them on her conference call on her phone while doing the zoom meeting with me so they could listen in and discuss it among themselves. So I let her get away with her obvious lie and say... Ok.... sure... etc.

    Moving onto the next example because she asked me again to give her a clear example of what happened that I thought made it negative. So I started to talk about the moment she was getting clearly defensive with the "I didn't say that!" moment. She cut me off before I could get more into detail about that moment and side tracked the conversation to prevent me from fully revealing that example. And went on to say stuff like "What you experienced is what you experienced. It happened, we cant change that. etc."

    Anyways, that entire conversation it was blatantly obvious she was trying to cover her own ass. She was lying left and right. She was clearly talking to and probably getting advice from other people with what to say because she constantly would mute her mic during moments where I'd start telling a story of some kind. I was legit as professional, honest, sincere as I could be throughout that entire meeting because I knew she was going to try to use it against me if she could. But I was soo on point with my sincerity, that there's no way anyone who listens to the conversation would think I had nefarious intent, and in fact, it would be blatantly obvious that she was being insincere and lying.

    In the end I got what I wanted, my department got the ok to hire a temp. That HR lady called my other 2 coworkers who's been in the department for years right after my call with her. She apologized to the guy she cut off. Then when she spoke with my other female coworker she was spewing more lies to try to tweak the events just enough to where it didn't look like she did anything wrong. Whatever. When my coworker told me what she said I shocked yet again. Anyways I've completely lost any and all respect for the head of HR. She clearly has no integrity, honesty, or sincerity. Her entire goal was just to protect herself and rewrite events to hide how significantly worse she made everything.

    Ok.... so my questions to you are... after having read that. Do you think they'd still be trying to build a case against me to fire me? (I'm not a person that can easily be replaced. If I left or was fired it would have a severe and immediate impact on the company and take MONTHS to find, train, and get someone up to speed to recover from my leaving. I'm a Treasury Management Officer where myself and 2 other coworkers do the work that covers 4 departments at other slightly larger banks. My tendrils are everywhere except the loan department that I barely interact with.)

    Do you think their intent was just to build evidence to protect themselves should I try to sue? (Which I have no clue what they could be sued for. I legit just wanted more help.)

    Do you think I should just quit and go somewhere else, citing that I've completely lost all confidence in the new head of HR? (BTW I do love working with my coworkers.)

    I know my boss really done fucked up too by pulled HR into it when it should have been a conversation between her and I. She should have been going to HR trying to get help for the department instead of trying to single me out like I'm a trouble maker. I've also lost all confidence in her and so has my other coworker. But... I'll just drink the Kool-Aid and be as professional as I can and do what I need to do, but she's already been avoiding talking to me. LoL. Funny thing is I know I'm more valuable to the company than she is and she's my boss. After 8 months in the company she still has no clue how most of the stuff works. I don't even know what she does most days. I keep hearing she's just doing training seminars of some kind. Myself and my other 2 coworkers could easily run the department without her. She's useless.
     
  2. Sear

    Sear TZT Neckbeard Lord

    Post Count:
    33,970
    tsk

    go work somewhere else m8

    You could go up the chain and try to get her canned, but that's probably unlikely. What you describe sounds beyond the point of repair, so your other option is to fall in line with someone that you've been brutally honest with (not always the best idea btw) who will likely try to railroad you out as soon as possible.

    Rule #1 for any non-small workplace: you are expendable and replaceable. Everyone is.
     
    Utumno likes this.
  3. Octavionn

    Octavionn Mind Blowing!

    Post Count:
    2,648
    I’m not saying I’m not replaceable. I’m just saying I’m not as easily replaceable as others would be and it would take a longer period of time to get someone up to speed and familiar with our particular systems, and to build the rapport with clients and branches. Etc. And knowing that has allowed me to stand my ground more. Lol.

    But you are probably right. If shit is already burned at the top of HR then the system will already be working against me from here on out with raises, etc. I’ll start looking for and applying to new places end of July or August... Whenever it is that Cali opens up most of its businesses.
     
  4. Ssalam

    Ssalam TZT Abuser

    Post Count:
    6,757
    Probably the best route. There's no such thing as company loyalty anymore. A lot of the time, if they want you gone, the will give you a glowing recommendation to make it happen. Just try to find yourself an upgrade and move on, imo.
     
    Octavionn likes this.
  5. Agrul

    Agrul TZT Neckbeard Lord

    Post Count:
    47,404
    I'd start applying for other jobs / cleaning up the ol' resume if I were you. That sounds awful, and only likely to get worse.

    Might also want to move this to the private forums.
     
    Octavionn likes this.
  6. Velox

    Velox TZT Abuser

    Post Count:
    6,614
    Too long to read details, but HR people are very hit or miss. Don't mess with them. There are plenty of bad ones out there that are clueless or don't give a shit, including performance of individual employees (nearly everybody is replaceable though). That's not their problem. Your boss will take the blame if your unit ends up under-performing because they drove off the wrong person. HR's job is to make the problem go away, and they don't really have any strong incentives to care about anything except risk to them (e.g. legal), which they want to minimize.

    Ssalam's advice about company loyalty is sadly true. Don't expect to automatically live on past accomplishments if you get a new boss. You have to constantly negotiate your advancement, only work titles measure employee importance to an outsider.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
    Octavionn likes this.
  7. Octavionn

    Octavionn Mind Blowing!

    Post Count:
    2,648
    All good sound advice. I was thinking that since I got what we needed, the extra help, that things can get better from here on out. But you all are correct that its come at the consequence of having the bad light of HR shining at me, which is bad for any kind of advancement or raises For me in the future. Ugh. I should have just taken that position that my previous company offered me. . It was a 30% increase to my salary and a management position. But I was being stubborn about having my seniority reinstated. Lol.

    ok. I’ll start cleaning up my resume this weekend and sending it out. I know my previous bank still has not filled the position they offered me but I cant ask them after having declined. Lol. Time to start fresh somewhere new.
     
  8. Jackpanel

    Jackpanel TZT Abuser

    Post Count:
    6,927
    If you're still happy with the actual job and people you work with, I'd suggest not overreacting and leaving for another job. There's a lot of shitty bosses out there, and I've never met anyone in any kind of HR-related job that wasn't horrible and incompetent. The grass is full of crap on both sides of the fence.

    If the company really does want to get rid of you, there's a good chance they'll pay to make sure you don't cause problems. You won't be fired, you'll be offered a good package to leave, and can still get glowing recommendations from coworkers to land something new. Polish up your resume and keep an eye out in case anything really good becomes available in the meantime, but otherwise wait it out where you are. Avoid dealing with HR unless you absolutely have to. There's no need to try to clear the air with them of fix their hostility towards you. The relationship you need to fix is the one with your immediate boss. She's the one that would ultimately decide to get rid of you, not HR. It sounds like you've got what you needed now though, so just let time and your good performance heal that relationship, instead of poking at it to try to fix it.
     
    Octavionn and Velox like this.
  9. Bailon

    Bailon TZT Neckbeard

    Post Count:
    12,256
    If I had lost confidence in the place I work and the people who have real and direct power over me; I'd leave. Fuck having that hanging over my every day.
     
    Octavionn, Utumno and Marglar like this.
  10. Arogarn

    Arogarn TZT Neckbeard

    Post Count:
    20,563
    Soon we'll all be out of jobs anyway and have to go back to the land.

    Embrace your inner pioneer
     
  11. AgelessDrifter

    AgelessDrifter TZT Neckbeard Lord

    Post Count:
    45,116
    Admins can we get this thread moved to the correct HR inbox?

    Thanks
     
  12. Red

    Red TZT Neckbeard

    Post Count:
    18,888
    The cycle of being completely replaceable continues
     
  13. Havlen

    Havlen TZT Abuser

    Post Count:
    9,917
    I would definitely be looking for a new job. Generally speaking, companies tend to favor bosses over workers when there is conflict like this. A good company might recognize the department-wide drop in morale, but then again, a good company would have already fixed it. A good company also wouldn't put a bad HR person in charge of HR.

    Basically, get out because it sounds like it is going to get worse.

    DON'T cite that you lost confidence in anyone at your company to any prospective employers. I would make any notice letter short and to the point without any details at all. (I am leaving effective XXX. It has been great working here. Bye.). If you get an HR exit interview, I would just say it was time to move on. If you get an executive-level exit interview, feel free to go over everything in hopes that it will affect change for your soon-to-be-ex co-workers.

    When you prospective new employer asks why you are leaving, you say (1 -- if it is a bigger company) I love my old position and job but feel moving to a larger company will allow me to continue to explore future opportunities or (2 -- if it is a smaller company) I love my old position, but I feel smaller companies allow for more ownership of projects and don't have the same red-tape, which can allow me to better explore future opportunities. (Basically, everything should be great with your old company and you are just looking at continuing up the ladder of your profession.).

    Anyway, just my thoughts, but I've been employed at toxic companies and seen a department turn toxic and it's hard for it to turn back. A company is its CEO, and a department is its boss. If your boss sucks, your department is going to suck and its going to suck to work there.

    Also: Tsk.
     
    Octavionn likes this.
  14. Agrul

    Agrul TZT Neckbeard Lord

    Post Count:
    47,404
    don your cat ears & spend your remaining days at work polishing your katana in front of the HR lady's cubicle

    on the final day challenge her to a neckbeard duel
     
    Octavionn likes this.
  15. Utumno

    Utumno Administrator Staff Member

    Post Count:
    42,757
    Plenty of people gave advice already, Havlen covered most everything I would have said.

    She sounds awful and she will absolutely be building a case against you because that's how these kinds of people roll.

    You may be able to win out in the end but I've seen this sort of thing go bad more often than not (with execs siding w/the clueless new HR people). If you think you can get a similar gig elsewhere that offers you much of the same things you enjoy, you should absolutely line that up. Bonus points if you think you can get fellow like-minded / valuable people to migrate with you or consider moving over after you've cleared the path.

    The few times I've seen employees counter dipshit management it's when the higher up mucky-mucks realized "oh damn, we're about to lose 3 or 4 key people because <insert exec name here> is doing a shitty job". Even then, it's been rare, and I've seen just as many cases when it's like "welp, these are 3 or 4 of our best people, but ehhh, too much trouble to get rid of <Head Cocksucker> who is well liked by CEO and Board Members so let's just keep things as is and replace those few as best we can.
     
    Octavionn likes this.
  16. Mern is Best

    Mern is Best TZT Addict

    Post Count:
    4,022
    1) No one is replaceable as others have already said. You have co-workers doing the same job as you in your department. If you were to quit/be fired the work load would be distributed to them until a replacement would be brought in.

    2) Companies start building a case on you starting your first day. They need to cover themselves if things go sour or employees start causing problems later on down the line.

    3) Management is always right. Unless they have committed some kind of gross offense your company will back management 100% of the time.

    4) HR protects the company first.


    I dont think you have much of a case if you tried to sue. Brinding HR into a discussion is not uncommon if it's a disciplinary issue or management feels the situation might escalate.

    You could get them for recording you without your consent since california is a two (or all?)party consent state. Proving they recorded you might be an issue. The only thing you might be able to argue is that they have unreasonable expectations of the amount of work your department is able to handle with the man power you have available, or overloading you on purpose to have a reason to let you go. You'd have to be able to prove that, because they could just say you were incapable of doing your job after they hired more man power at your request, and that's why you were let go.

    Talk to a lawyer if you are seriously considering that option.
     
    Octavionn likes this.
  17. Czer

    Czer I'm a poor person. The lambo is my cousin's.

    Post Count:
    30,329
    Yeah, you need to lineup the contract you signed with the workload you have.

    I've watched a recruiter (who also acted as the entities HR) for an ERP company in LA call people slaves because they were salary to make a point about working overtime and on days off.
     
    Octavionn likes this.
  18. Red

    Red TZT Neckbeard

    Post Count:
    18,888
    Imagine caring about your job
     
    allanun likes this.
  19. Octavionn

    Octavionn Mind Blowing!

    Post Count:
    2,648
    Those both are really good. I've worked for mega banks and I've worked for small banks. Small banks are where its at for fast promotions, training, and experience. Big banks are when you have all that experience and you're going for the big bucks / money driven. I personally love the intimacy of the small banks and enjoy knowing everyone and vice versa.
     
  20. Sear

    Sear TZT Neckbeard Lord

    Post Count:
    33,970
    option 3 is to say: Debra the HR nazi was a real tssskcunt and I'm quite a handful myself, so I chainlinked the fuck out of that joint. You dig, nig?
     
    Agrul, Utumno and Octavionn like this.