2020 election cycle thread

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by AgelessDrifter, Dec 31, 2018.

  1. Velox

    Velox TZT Abuser

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    This was fun:


    If enough people says its true, then it must be true right? Sometimes I fear for humanity. So many people can't think for themselves, and have no interest in doing so. I'm no fan of elitism, but maybe stable governance requires some form of more educated ruling class, and the internet upended all that. Maybe we broke society?
     
  2. TulionKT

    TulionKT Spamaton Will Rise Again

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    Technocracy is the way to go.



    [​IMG]
     
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  3. Velox

    Velox TZT Abuser

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    Yeah, this is a very old discussion, but somehow democracy has worked pretty well until now (since WW2 at least). Even though education levels are rising, populism is also on the rise. What changed?

    The US is one of the furthest gone, but the signs are there in other places also. The EU has also had a huge problem with extreme populist movements over the last decade. Poland is for example very polarized, with a borderline authoritarian religious right in charge. They are ethnically rather homogenous, so the entire race war narrative isn't applicable either.

    For whatever reason, there has been wide-spread loss of confidence/authority in the (usually liberal) elite like journalists, politicians, academics and experts. Why are people trusting randos on the internet over conventional authorities? Is it the internet that opened Pandora's box? Did the (liberal) elite just grow too decadent or too different? I don't know.

    Subjectively, it seems more people are also abandoning modern authorities for past ones, like the church. I don't think we can just blame it on "deplorables" either, these people have always existed, but they mostly kept their head down and stayed in the main stream.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
  4. Czer

    Czer I'm a poor person. The lambo is my cousin's.

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    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism

    Neoliberalism or neo-liberalism[1] is the 20th-century resurgence of 19th-century ideas associated with economic liberalism and free-market capitalism.[2]:7[3] It is generally associated with policies of economic liberalization, including privatization, deregulation, globalization, free trade, austerity, and reductions in government spending in order to increase the role of the private sector in the economy and society;[4][12] however, the defining features of neoliberalism in both thought and practice have been the subject of substantial scholarly debate.[13][14] In policymaking, neoliberalism was part of a paradigm shift that followed the failure of the Keynesian consensus in economics to address the stagflation of the 1970s.[15][16]

    When the term entered into common use in the 1980s[citation needed] in connection with Augusto Pinochet's economic reforms in Chile, it quickly took on negative connotations and was employed principally by critics of market reform and laissez-faire capitalism. Scholars tended to associate it with the theories of Mont Pelerin Society economists Friedrich Hayek, Milton Friedman, and James M. Buchanan, along with politicians and policy-makers such as Margaret Thatcher, Ronald Reagan and Alan Greenspan.[6][27] Once the new meaning of neoliberalism became established as a common usage among Spanish-speaking scholars, it diffused into the English-language study of political economy.[6] By 1994, with the passage of NAFTA and with the Zapatistas' reaction to this development in Chiapas, the term entered global circulation.[5] Scholarship on the phenomenon of neoliberalism has grown over the last few decades.[19][28]
     
  5. Velox

    Velox TZT Abuser

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    I don't think you can blame it all on neo-liberalism either, I think e.g. Poland saw good wage gains under the liberal reign. Economic inequality is certainly a classical driver of populist politics though.
     
  6. Agrul

    Agrul TZT Neckbeard Lord

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    I dunno how you make technocracy (in the sense of that video -- i.e., literally basing who can vote on some kind of standard of knowledge/wisdom/competency) work without it being readily exploitable by people who would prefer to misuse it to implement Jim Crow by another name.
     
  7. Czer

    Czer I'm a poor person. The lambo is my cousin's.

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    @Velox That's a very specific argument, explain the time periods and leadership
     
  8. Agrul

    Agrul TZT Neckbeard Lord

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    I think our (American) culture has a sickness that has grown and festered as relates to knowledge. I don't really know how to fix that other than working around it for a while, appealing to the people most harmed by it with economic solutions so directly beneficial to them that it overcomes the knowledge gap.

    I think there are, also, important political changes that are no-brainers (FPTP should be shot in the head, wherever it is possible to do so, and replaced with an analogous proportional representation principle; this should be easy for POTUS, as I argued previously, but much harder for something like the House), and important political changes that are more contentious because they're politically charged (disproportionately weighting POTUS votes to favor states with fewer people). These are important, but not enough by themselves
     
  9. Samassi Abou

    Samassi Abou TZT Abuser

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    I don’t think you can blame it all on neo-liberalism, but it deserves a fair amount of the blame. Previously it contributed to the pauperisation of large parts of the US like Detroit and the inner cities, and this economic malaise is currently being spread to Republican rural areas; hence opioids, desperation and Trump.

    Similar thing with the working class north of England and Brexit. But Russian mischief also played a big role is the rise of popularism.
     
  10. Czer

    Czer I'm a poor person. The lambo is my cousin's.

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  11. Velox

    Velox TZT Abuser

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    Populism is often just taken to mean "anti-establishment" rhetoric, it can be a vehicle for any number of -isms.

    As for the fiscal dimension, iirc Poland's right-wing populists were to the left of their "liberals", while Hungary's were to the right of theirs. France ditched their social democrat president, and voted in a more neo-liberal Macron in response to a nationalist populist Le Pen.

    Most of these are right-wing populists, but Greece had actual left-wing populists that were in charge for a bit after the financial crisis. Overall there is clearly a regression towards conservative values on the social dimension though. Then you have the US, where the Tea Party who is beyond neo-liberal, teamed up with the Trumpian nationalists and the Christian right. I don't really know what conclusions to draw from this except there is generally a populist trend against globalization driven by economical inequality, and a resurgence of conservative values and nationalism for unknown reasons. EDIT: Maybe the internet aids populism in general (e.g. Facebook), but I haven't seen any data on how that played into the rise of those parties specifically. I know it aided the Swedish populists.

    Perhaps more interesting in the context of this discussion is that countries also seem a lot more polarized, e.g. USA,. France, Poland (to name a few) are very divided. Poland, Hungary and now USA has also seen some erosion of rule of law and democratic values. This could perhaps be attributed to the internet alone. Some of these like nationalism can go hand in hand though. Hungary and Poland are borderline authoritarian.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
  12. Samassi Abou

    Samassi Abou TZT Abuser

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    I’m not saying that the failure of neoliberalism has necessarily made people more economically left wing. Just more angry and willing to smash up the system.

    On the other hand, though, the neoliberal ‘Washington Consensus’ has been in retreat probably since 2008. Trump calling himself “Tariff Man” and the Republican Party remaining feverishly loyal despite, or perhaps because of this, is an obvious example of that. Not so long ago we had Mitt Romney saying that Detroit should be sacrificed to the god that was the free market.
     
  13. Agrul

    Agrul TZT Neckbeard Lord

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    Since 2008? I think the Washington Consensus has been declining since roughly 2K
     
  14. Agrul

    Agrul TZT Neckbeard Lord

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    Maybe earlier, actually :hmm:
     
  15. Grandasaur Egg

    Grandasaur Egg Groor.

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  16. Fais

    Fais TZT Abuser

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    We are always fighting old battles and new ones. Welcome to smoked chicken Nirvana. Whole Chicken, Brined with a Beer, rubbed with Avacodoe oil, Salt, pepper, garlic, parsley, and sweet paprika. Hickory smoked to temp. Nice!
     
  17. Grandasaur Egg

    Grandasaur Egg Groor.

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  18. TulionKT

    TulionKT Spamaton Will Rise Again

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    Jim Crow was implemented out of sheer ignorance, paranoia and stupidity from the former Confederate states in the late 1800s, it wasn't based on facts nor evidence. Technocracy is about evidence-based policies, I can assure you the morons that wanted Jim Crow wouldn't be allowed to vote in a real technocratic government.
     
  19. Czer

    Czer I'm a poor person. The lambo is my cousin's.

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    I don't know how technocracy is hard, if value is determined as productivity + time, and or factor in the job skillset blah blah and PPP ratio to the area

    and money adjusts as your human moves across different PPP zones

    WELCOME TO THE FUTURE CRAGRUL
     
  20. Agrul

    Agrul TZT Neckbeard Lord

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    Technocracy is in principle about evidence-based policies; it is an ideal, not an actuality. But the trouble is: how do you achieve that? In the video, he briefly suggests losing faith in letting everyone vote.

    But what do you replace that with? Letting everyone vote.... based on a test? That isn't even in the abstract a god awful idea; but, how do you control people exploiting it to subvert outcomes they don't want?