Kanmuk, I know how draining conversations like this can be. So don't feel like you need to respond to anything I say, but be assured I will take you to task on anything you do say. We can just sit in the Nexus and have a polite discussion (or Plane of Knowledge if you prefer) or you can just go AFK as this board is the equivalent. I think I addressed this clearly enough, even if you abhor the term narrative, and meaning as descriptors, it nonetheless shapes your view of yourself and the world you find yourself in, and there is a framework inherent within that view. I don't see any way out of this for you other than to argue "semantics" as if that removed the problem we are up against here. I won't accept a dismissal of it, nor will I accept you repeating a nonsensical position as clarification. You of course can do whatever your energy and will to continue this argument allow, and I will not hold it against you. Agrul I'll check out some Kauffman, and see what I can find from googling and reading. To your first 3 bullets: I alluded to how one could potentially construct a non-nihilist view from the position espoused by a few of you here in the OP. Nietzsche's view basically. We are in agreement on uninvested nihilism. To the next set: 1. It's not just semantics, nor is the framework I'm referring to contentless, that is completely unsatisfying and lazy. If I haven't made clear what I mean by narrative by now I can try again. 2. I've tried to make sure that this is more about thinking about the concept of metanarrative, and using my own as the example to help clarify what that looks like. Also, to announce to the board a radical departure from my previously held positions. 3. It's OK, no one cares about half the shit you say either. I don't think you should stop though.