That tax plan passed

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by AgelessDrifter, Dec 2, 2017.

  1. Odoyal Rulez

    Odoyal Rulez NPCF

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    If it helps you sleep better, sure, I'll acknowledge that. I have incredible respect for anyone working hard, regardless of occupation.

    I also, agree with your statement above; I think our inability the fund infrastructure improvements or assist diasabled veterans is abhorrent. However, the government needs to take less and use the money efficiently. They tax us for everything, and very little improves.

    Would you agree to that point?
     
  2. Utumno

    Utumno Administrator Staff Member

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    There are actually facts and statistics out there for this stuff you know?

    Like true tax levels for corporations and billionaires vs middle-class and lower-class, and how this has changed over the years?

    The actual growth of wealth among the elite vs stagnation/regression in middle class - if reading dry statistics isn't your thing there's about a million infographics that outline it pretty well.

    This is why I get frustrated discussing this stuff with so many self-professed conservatives. I mean I consider myself below-par in terms of debate/research skills but these discussions can't even get off the ground because all the premises are just purely gut-feel and morality and anecdote w/out even an attempt at using real metrics.
     
  3. Czer

    Czer I'm a poor person. The lambo is my cousin's.

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    Paul Ryan says Republicans to target welfare, Medicare, Medicaid spending in 2018

    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...t-republican-welfare-cuts-20171206-story.html

    House Speaker Paul Ryan, R-Wis., said Wednesday that congressional Republicans will aim next year to reduce spending on both federal health care and anti-poverty programs, citing the need to reduce America's deficit.

    "We're going to have to get back next year at entitlement reform, which is how you tackle the debt and the deficit," Ryan said during an appearance on Ross Kaminsky's talk radio show. ". . . Frankly, it's the health care entitlements that are the big drivers of our debt, so we spend more time on the health care entitlements - because that's really where the problem lies, fiscally speaking."

    Ryan said that he believes he has begun convincing President Donald Trump in their private conversations about the need to rein in Medicare, the federal health program that primarily insures the elderly. As a candidate, Trump vowed not to cut spending on Social Security, Medicare or Medicaid. (Ryan also suggested congressional Republicans were unlikely to try changing Social Security because the rules of the Senate forbid changes to the program through reconciliation - the procedure the Senate can use to pass legislation with only 50 votes.)

    "I think the president is understanding that choice and competition works everywhere in health care, especially in Medicare," Ryan said. ". . . This has been my big thing for many, many years. I think it's the biggest entitlement we've got to reform."

    Ryan's remarks add to the growing signs that top Republicans aim to cut government spending next year. Republicans are close to passing a tax bill nonpartisan analysts say would increase the deficit by at least $1 trillion over a decade. Trump recently called on Congress to move to cut welfare spending after the tax bill, and Senate Republicans have cited the need to reduce the national deficit while growing the economy.

    "You also have to bring spending under control. And not discretionary spending. That isn't the driver of our debt. The driver of our debt is the structure of Social Security and Medicare for future beneficiaries," Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., said last week.

    [​IMG]
    While whipping votes for the tax bill, Senate Finance Committee Chairman Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, attacked "liberal programs" for the poor and said Congress needed to stop wasting Americans' money.

    "We're spending ourselves into bankruptcy," Hatch said. "Now, let's just be honest about it: We're in trouble. This country is in deep debt. You don't help the poor by not solving the problems of debt, and you don't help the poor by continually pushing more and more liberal programs through."

    Trump has not clarified which specific programs would be affected by the proposed "welfare reform," though congressional Republicans are signaling that they aim to impose work requirements on food stamps and direct cash assistance for the poor.

    "We have a welfare system that's trapping people in poverty and effectively paying people not to work," Ryan told Kaminsky on Wednesday. "We've got to work on that."

    Liberals have alleged that the GOP will use higher deficits - in part caused by their tax bill - as a pretext to accomplish the long-held conservative policy objective of cutting government health-care and social-service spending, which the left believes would hit the poor the hardest.

    "What's coming next is all too predictable: The deficit hawks will come flying back after this bill becomes law," said Sen. Ron Wyden, D-Ore., the ranking Democrat on the finance committee, during a speech on the tax debate. "Republicans are already saying 'entitlement reform' and 'welfare reform' are next up on the docket. But nobody should be fooled - that's just code for attacks on Medicaid, on Medicare, on Social Security, on anti-hunger programs."

    On the Senate floor during the tax debate, Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., asked Rubio and Sen. Patrick J. Toomey, R-Pa., to promise that Republicans would not advance cuts to Medicare and Social Security after their tax bill. Toomey said that there was "no secret plan" to do so, while Rubio said he opposed cuts to either program for current beneficiaries. However, neither closed the door to changing the programs for future beneficiaries.

    "I am not going to support any cuts to people who are on the program and need those benefits. But I want this program to survive," Toomey said. To which Sanders responded: "He just told you he's going to cut Social Security."

    Many conservatives have long argued for cutting and changing social safety net programs, arguing that anti-poverty programs have failed and that Social Security spending is growing at an unsustainable rate.

    Still, members of both parties have long been reluctant to cut benefits, especially for seniors, due in part to the potential political cost of doing so. And in discussing changes, Republicans, including Rubio, have largely confined their ideas to plans that would affect new beneficiaries, rather than current ones.

    [​IMG]
    But it may be particularly difficult for Republicans to push those measures ahead of the 2018 midterm elections, in which many in swing states and districts face well-funded Democratic challengers hoping to ride an anti-Trump wave into office.

    Ryan said he's optimistic, adding that Republicans could target the Affordable Care Act and Medicaid next year in addition to Medicare, despite their failure to repeal the health care law in 2017.

    "What it is we really need to convert our health care system to a patient-centered system so we have more choices and more competition. Choice and competition brings down prices and improves quality; government-run health care is the opposite of that," Ryan said. "So I think these reforms that we've been talking about, that we're still going to keep pushing, that will help not just make Medicaid less expensive . . . but it will help Medicare as well."
     
  4. Sear

    Sear TZT Neckbeard Lord

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    I think they need to use it more efficiently. I don't know if they need to take less.

    It's a tough pill to swallow for people who have had it beaten into their skulls that the government wants to take their money & redistribute it to the undeserving, but we pay less in taxes than most developed countries: http://www.businessinsider.com/how-much-americans-pay-in-taxes-compared-to-other-countries-2017-7

    Here's where it goes:

    [​IMG]

    What % of that 9% for safety net programs do you think actually goes to lazy undeserving people? TANF is abused, but some of those programs aim to feed kids who are in poverty or senior citizens who are disabled.

    I tried to love libertarian views on the economy, but I could never fully reconcile them with reality.

    The only concession I can make about this tax bill is that the 35% corporate tax rate probably was a little too high (would result in corporations going overseas), but they overcorrected that and the rest of it is bullshit.
     
  5. TulionKT

    TulionKT Spamaton Will Rise Again

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  6. Agrul

    Agrul TZT Neckbeard Lord

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    god damn i really called it w/ the taxation = theft mocking

    feelign more informed already what an insightful and not at all trite + superficial conversation we're havin'
     
  7. AgelessDrifter

    AgelessDrifter TZT Neckbeard Lord

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    You may not like it

    but this is what peak performance looks like
     
  8. Agrul

    Agrul TZT Neckbeard Lord

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    like it? pal i'm lovin it

     
  9. Agrul

    Agrul TZT Neckbeard Lord

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  10. CanadaEQ

    CanadaEQ TZT Neckbeard

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    If any of you want out, but don't want to go 'full Canadian', you should check out Alberta, it's like US lite.
     
    Odoyal Rulez likes this.
  11. Kilinitic

    Kilinitic 6,000 feet beyond man and time

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    u think a utilitarian framework would resolve issues with 'subjectivity' ????

    wut about arguments over what sort of valuation system u use to quantify good/bad done
    or when comparing 2 actions that have very different types of immediately quantifiable societal impacts??
    ???? ? ? ? ?? ? ? ? ? ? ?

    how does one judge if a certain outcome is even, in a discrete sense, good or bad?

    seems like a lot of room 4 debate and grumbling
     
  12. Red

    Red TZT Neckbeard

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    Piece of shit libcucks stealing my hard earned dollars with all of these bullshit taxes. How about instead of using tax money to fix roads we just turn homeless people into asphalt. Why can't you fucking egghead nerds figure that shit out.
     
  13. Velox

    Velox TZT Abuser

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    Given the spelling I'm not sure if you are serious, but I would say that is an often misunderstood feature, not a bug. The nice thing about such a framework is that it does force you to use an overarching objective tied the well-being of individuals. Pinning it down very precisely will of course be an on-going process, e.g. should we use fuzzy metrics like "happiness (over time)" or more precise but flawed ones like "HDI (over time)", but for the vast majority of moral questions with which the world struggles today, these will give the same answer. E.g. should we stone unbelievers to death? Should we shun wealth-redistribution or support for the poor, so that all resources end up concentrated in the hands of a few? Should we let companies own basic infrastructure without regulation? Rule-based systems struggle with these, while modern research indicates these lead to pretty much unanimously poor outcomes in terms of well-being over time.
     
  14. Vlaara

    Vlaara Maaruk the Mighty

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    I would agree to this point. I'll see if I can find some time to expound on some ideas this morning -- my knowledge in this area is incredibly limited and so they might be naive ideas but I'll attempt to say something anyhow.

    I'll definitely try and make aforementioned post, bc I think you would appreciate the utilitarian approach. However, it is utilitarian based on my worldview.
     
  15. AgelessDrifter

    AgelessDrifter TZT Neckbeard Lord

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  16. TulionKT

    TulionKT Spamaton Will Rise Again

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  17. Vlaara

    Vlaara Maaruk the Mighty

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    fuck I don't have time to do this much research and writing for a post so I'll try and sum it up within 20 minutes. a few things:

    how do we measure productivity? is there a correlation between wealth and productivity relatively speaking? my hunch would be there are large sectors (particularly in finance and aquisitions etc.) that "create" money without actually creating anything. second (and this would hinge on answers found in the first), if productivity (as some kind of metric for measuring value) follows a pareto distribution, how much pressure do we really want to put on these incredibly productive people? what is a reasonable amount of taxes to ask them to pay in relation to cost of living at that level?

    Sear, your 75k number seems a bit absurd, I don't know if we can reasonably decide at what level someone has too much money if the first threshold is 75k year. We have already passed that in a single income family, and we aren't rich by any stretch of the imagination although we live comfortably. We do have two paid off cars, and a mortgage that costs 22,800 / year for a modest house in a nicer part of town. As of this article the average to be a 1%er is $390k, this changes by location in Connecticut you need to make 660k to be part of the 1%.

    Then there is the 1% of the 1% which was something I was wondering about, and they talk about it in the same article.

    there are a lot of concerns about the conversation in general, but specifically we are talking about taxation and what is appropriate to tax. I think in general the reason why I am concerned with correlating wealth creation with productivity has abstracted the conversation we should be having into something else entirely. because i would be totally down with completely fucking over the people who become wealthy by fancy accounting and exploiting the system vs the people who work hard and come up with new ideas etc. although that might be hard to do. I bet the rich people themselves have a distinction, maybe the Ayn Rand archetype exists out there somewhere and could tell you all about who the real bad guys are.

    It does seem like we could probably come up with something better, not we as in you retards but the royal we.

    Anyways, too much time even on this post. Need to get to more important things like leveling my lizard man.
     
  18. Vlaara

    Vlaara Maaruk the Mighty

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    My thoughts on this subject are all over the place, there is a lot to discuss. In closing:

     
  19. Sear

    Sear TZT Neckbeard Lord

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    props to ur wife

    I didn't make up that number. Here's the study: http://wws.princeton.edu/news-and-events/news/item/two-wws-professors-release-new-study-income’s-influence-happiness

    obv it's subject to location and cost of living, yeah. The point I was getting at is that you don't need obscene wealth to be happy or see to your needs.

     
  20. Vlaara

    Vlaara Maaruk the Mighty

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    cool, no disagreement here on that point. I don't think being obscenely wealthy is necessary for happiness. there are still other considerations than happiness though. i guess i could see a world in which income was capped at 75k? there would still end up being some kind of hierarchy being formed.